Grow your reflexology practice with RLD - interview with Wendy Perry

this meeting is being recorded okay so i'd like to welcome wendy perry who's been doing rld now for a good few months and has recently had started having referrals from the local lymphedema clinic and i thought it'd be really helpful that we could share some of wendy's story um to how she's getting the referrals uh and how she's how she's done so well um using this protocol in her practice so over to you wendy everybody else is listening um so basically i i've been working my rld on clients um since last it's almost um a year in august um and once i started my rld i just knew that this was gonna change a lot of lives um so as i was doing people and they were mentioning the lymphedema clinic um and i was collecting all this evidence that's you know they basically do nothing for them apart from um the stockings and sometimes they will use a machine um but they can only do it once and then they don't see them for another six months so i were collecting everything all these things that people were telling me and a lot of the ladies that i was having were ready to go to see um their lymphedema nurse at the clinic so i thought this is a way of actually showing the lymphoedema clinic that i'm out here and i'm there to help people so what i started to do was um every client um when we've done the measurements and before and afterwards i always do the measurements because i think that it shows it's a different mindset for people then that if they can see that and just take photographs and if they don't want to be measured then that's fine but i do like to do that and then i come home and i make them a graph so then we can see it and i show them the graph every time they come so i had one lady one particular lady who'd had breast cancer and she had swelling um of her arm um so we measured it and we tried lots of things and she said i'm going to a lymphedema clinic um i've still not got an appointment through so her base measurements were a baseline was like it was almost 4 000 ml it was a lot of fluid in her arm and after a six treatments with me we'd got it down to like 2 000 which was unbelievable yeah i mean that's fantastic oh it was and she was just over the moon with it and she'd have breast cancer 35 years ago and it had only just come yeah so there's a lifetime risk of uh developing edema it's being removed but if we just rewind that put that back into context that's approximately two liters of fluid lid yeah think about the weight of that think about the weight of that that's eight bottles of um what no no it's not illegal she actually tried a blouse on because she had to buy clothing that was extra extra big for her yeah just for the sleeve yeah and she tried and she she had one of these blouses on and i said to her you know the glows that you had on when i first came she said yeah i said we still got it she said yes i'd put it on and let's see and it was baggy on her really really baggy honor and she said i wouldn't believe i've had to change my wardrobe again she said not that i'm complaining but that was a massive for me and i just thought wow you know it blew me away so i said to her when you go to the lymphoedema clinic take this graph with you i printed it out for her and i attached one of my business cards so she said i will i'm going next week and then on the friday evening she called me and she said i just thought i'd let you know um that the lymphedema nurse was blown away so i said really so she said she couldn't believe what had happened and that she'd had a couple of other ladies in saying that they'd had they'd been to see a reflexologist and not mention reflex lymph training yeah so she just thought they'd gone for some reflexion so she said um but i've given your number and she said she's going to give you a call so i said okay and then every week i was getting calls saying um your number's been passed on to me by the lymphedema clinic um can i book an appointment so i said yeah of course you can so these ladies were coming in and they've obviously gone back to clinic and they've seen the results again so last wednesday i was um i was in clinic i had a spur hour and the phone rang and it was this nurse and she just said um i just wanted to you know say hello um we're over at the lymphoedema clinic so she said and i'm panicking because i keep referring all these patients to you and i'm worried that we're bogging you down so i said you're never gonna bug me down so she said well i'd love to meet you one day so i said well look i've got a spare hour now are you busy so she said pop over for a coffee so i went over and they let me in and they was like i was like god she was like come on sit down she said we've been dying to meet you so i then went into everything that you taught me um i gave them your website address so that they could look at the research and the thermal imaging i wanted them to see that it had all been done properly and she just said wow she was absolutely blown away so she said last week in she works in the hospital and obviously in clinics the consultant had mentioned my name but he called me wendy peg there's a lady called wendy pegg so she said it's the same lady she said and it's not reflexology it's lymph drainage reflex lymph draining so he said well um we perhaps need to have a word with her so she said so it was just mind blowing she said your name is being scattered about a friend of hers who'd had knee surgery and also i've been to visit him and we'd reduce this swelling on his knee so he could start his physio so she said so you're in little pockets all over the hospital of people saying oh well i know this reflexologist so i said wow so she said so are we okay to keep referring she said because where i am in oldham there's lots of different clinics so she said am i all right to pass your number to each of the clinics so i said of course you are yeah so i said to her and if you ever want me to come in you can do some measuring and i'll go in the room i'll do the reflexology lymph draining and then you can come back in and re-measure so she said i'd love to do that so she said because but we don't need to do that she said because we've seen the results she asked me how i measured she asked me um how i got the volume so i showed her um the app that i've got and also that i'm a member now of british limb society and i'm always learning about it all the time and she said wow she said you really are very good at this she said and i can't believe that this is happening she said i wish that the nhs could provide it yeah i really do because all we can do is offer them stockings and say we'll see you in six months she said and it breaks my heart art she said as a nurse because i'm not doing anything for them yeah i mean this is this is a common uh theme i mean lymphedema services they're doing their best but it's a postcode lottery throughout the uk um some of my clients only get one appointment a year they just get re re-measured for um stocking and that's it yeah um so the the fact that you are gathering the data and doing the mental supports the work because it shows that it's not something else that's doing that now you know what the clients and patients are doing but i'm not really pleased because they when they have their area meetings and their group meetings hopefully they'll they'll tell each other and that because generally i would say the bls and the lsn the british lymphology society and the lymphoedema support network are aware of the work um because my colleague judith watley who is the researcher and reflective researcher from the university she's presented at both these um and for the consultant too the only other consultant uh story that i had was one of the participants who took part in the second research study where we did it at three different centers she lived too far away from where we are to there wasn't anybody near her she didn't mind traveling to take part in the research and her breast care consultant was so impressed by the changes in her arm after she took part in the research trial that he then paid for a reflex a local reflexologist to come on my course he paid for her to stay in a in a like traveling weekend as well so that she could so that he could then refer his breast cancer patients with lymphedema to this reflexologist wow and that lovely participant and i'm i still am connected to her through social media um she she's she's fine with it now her and she doesn't have a problem with her swelling anymore you know i do need to emphasize it isn't a cure no very way of managing ranging and this is exactly what i say to people you know as well yes exactly no exactly and this is why and she said this to me because when the nurse actually thought that i only did um for after breast cancer and i said okay she said i was confused because i was thinking it was just for when people have had breast cancer or at the lymph node i said not necessarily no i said you as well as i know that lymphedemia can be caused by obviously many different things yes it can yeah so so people that are coming to me that with the big legs and things like that i said i i do see more people with swelling in their legs than their arms i said because um they just want the swelling gone and i said but it's not a matter of i can't do with that but i do help to manage it and it also helps people i have a lady who's been coming to me since christmas and she came and she said all i want to do is to wear a different shoe she said i have to wear these shoes all the time she was a big lady and i said to her right i'll help you if you'll help me i said because this lymph needs to be moved it needs moving i said and the movement will help it even more right so we set this little program together she's now lost 78 pound in weight and um rld is a catalyst for change because it gives people hope because you start to get rid of a little bit of the swelling and then people start to feel better and more there's there's there hope it gives them hope in what previously felt like a hopeless situation um they feel more enabled and because their legs feel lighter um even if you're not measuring legs that's fine people know from their shoes and their clothes because they feel lighter and they then feel more enabled to regain control of their own bodies and start to walk more or just move around you know small small steps no pressure and they didn't yes exactly and she was able to put trainers on yeah to allow her to walk yeah and she walks like you see and now i see her she's a great friend of mine now and she walks everywhere and you know she tags me in everything that she does and yes you know i'm so proud of her i really am because she's it's giver like you said it's given that yeah to like do something yeah it's the catalyst it's a catalyst for change and when she came to you i mean from for most people it would seem like a small thing or i just want to be able to wear different shoes but it's not a small thing the small things are what make the biggest difference you know um i could think of another a lovely case of somebody who wanted to wear it was a reflexologist in northern ireland jackie grimley she had a client who wanted to wear um shoes to her daughter's wedding and her swelling was so bad this means so much she did she did after a few sessions of rld yeah and it's just i'm just happy that it's changing people's lives and that there is something there yeah for them you know um and it's just it just makes a massive difference to people it does i mean is amazing it does make a huge difference in people's lives it's very very difficult to prove that it's the reflexology yes so it's the data that you're gathering it you're measuring in in the correct way in a way that the lymphedema service recognize that's what helps to open doors people take on that data collection i mean the nurse actually even said to me if there's anything you need if you need any measuring tips or anything just get in touch with us you know anything you need and i was like wow yeah just like it's opened a little door you know and i just think well and if people all around the country can do that yeah then you know it's going to get recognized it does it does i hear you and you know this just takes you you've given me several goosebumps moments but yeah right in the beginning when i knew this was something that could make a huge positive difference to the lives of people for whom there's very very little available that's when i sort of set off on this mission to do more research teach the people to do the work because it it's it's lovely to have done as well it's not unpleasant um and the results can be they have such a positive impact that it's life-changing and i think as well um i was at um christie's hospital last week my sister oh where are you yeah my sister-in-law's in and she's just had some lymph nodes removed okay but i said to her the day you come out i've got to wait for her foot to heal because she's had um a melanoma in her foot so she's got a drain in there at the minute so i said to her but as soon as the drain's out and you feel up to it i need to start this straight away so she said oh god yeah she said i've been talking to a lady about you anyway one of the nurses came to me and i said have you got any what do you give a patient when because i always like to know what what they get after they've had these lymph nodes removed and and it's just a basic thing that they will may get lymphedema and that they will go to a lymphedema clinic but i feel like they should have some information about us on the it's very difficult for them to do that though it's very difficult because reflexology is unregulated and the nice guidelines just couldn't be referring normal because then what if they go somewhere and they the person say yeah i'm a reflex artist but they don't do rld or they don't understand and bad for reflexology um yeah why i have the register of registered rld uh reflexologists but the christie uh the christie have been very supportive of the work um they're amazing the work they do at the christie of complementary therapies in cancer care is legendary and their next week came to do some training so yeah i'm really looking forward to that yeah what are you doing there um the um adapting reflexology uh for palliative care um and cancer care in a hospice setting so yeah so um i'm hoping to uh to move in different places soon yeah why they're obviously making a huge difference to people's lives i love it i absolutely love it when i know i've got something for for lymph draining in i absolutely love it yeah and i love it because it's visual it's so visual yeah and you can actually see the faces at the end you know i've had so many ladies cry at the end of the treatment saying wow i can move my foot i can do this i can do that and lift my arm i had a lady come to see me she'd had um she'd have breast cancer um but she'd not had a breast remove she'd had a lymph node removed and and she ended up with a lump under around yeah it's quite common and for three years she she'd walked about with her arm because she couldn't put it down yeah and she had one session and it completely went yeah one session so one of the ladies in my first small study she had a pocket under her arm that she called my tennis ball and like that she because that's what it felt like and it meant that she had referred yeah because of that and at the end of it it was all gone and i've had some case studies like that um i had one it was it was a lovely comment it was something like um it used to feel like a suitcase under my arm but now it's yeah lots of different different ones i mean i've had a lady that had um breast cancer and she had a pocket of fluid on her back yes you could never wear a t-shirt because she looked like she said i look like the hunchback of notre dame here so but then i did a treatment for her and then the following day she messaged me and said i can't believe how much it's gone down i mean it's completely not there now after her sessions it's completely drunk and she said you you changed my life yeah it's like it makes this just the most rewarding job in the world and for something that feels so simple and to to have that improvement in self-confidence because as the swelling starts to go down um people's self-confidence starts to improve and they become more enabled more inclined to engage with things yes like the other lovely one in my first study who joined a gym and started doing zumba and she hadn't liked to do that before because he felt so self-conscious of all the swelling um and in fact that joining the gym and doing zumba would help to um sustain the results exactly and people who've been told well there's there's nothing that can be done about this we'll measure you wear this compression garment do these exercises we'll see you in a year's time there's that that mindset sinks in or i just got to live with this and that you can just yeah it can be done so when you find something as pleasant as rlg you know reflects rg lymph drainage that can be done just for taking your shoes and socks off makes a difference yeah that gives them hope and and people don't need to keep coming all the time but to know you're there and to know they can come back and you can help them with that there are thousands of people all over the world now that have joined the training and um are on the rld register they did fantastic it really is and i have people that have like that have been coming to me with swelling um different kinds and they'll say i've been on holiday and my feet always swell on the plane and yeah so what if i come to you the day before i go and and then they're messaging me on the holidays saying look at my feet they didn't swell and it's just nice it's just i just love it i really don't it's it's made it's just made such a difference in my life as well knowing that i can help some people yes it's just so rewarding isn't it very much and you meet such lovely clients oh no exactly and people said to me and i said to him i wished i'd done this years ago years ago yeah so i'm not retiring i've got 10 years and i keep saying i'm not retiring no way no no i feel like i feel like that too because there feels like there's still so much work to be done around this and and teaching other people so that it's done properly so that the people understand it and yeah and they go on the register um you know sign of quality assurance and yeah i love it can't thank you enough for teaching at me well wendy you've you've embraced it and you've fully you know grabbed the ball by the horns and yeah you've carried on with the data collecting yeah which is my biggest tip to everybody is to record it all because when they see it in black and white and i like it when they come to me and they've been to the lymphedema clinic because i can't wait for them to go back you know because they will see a massive difference but recording the data is the most important thing it is it really is i agree and and i know chat what you sent me i still use that chat yeah that chat one name on everyone yes that's exactly that's exactly why i share it so no i know it's not for everyone but my you know i had to learn to use excel and try and understand maths and to create that so that my original data sets weren't flawed because it was a huge margin for error had i not done it um properly and i had it all tried tested double checked and verified against the system that the lymphedema service where i was did my training in the measuring she checked she checked it all for me and so it is tried and tested and verified and i was like i used that every single time yeah i i just and i and then i had to then go on youtube to learn how to make a graph what do i do but yeah you won't forget that because you had to learn how to do that yourself yes yeah so now i i will say to somebody when they come in look if you're gonna stick with me we will we will do a graph and i'll show you each week you know i said sometimes you may get the odd little you know it's coming back up again but it will never go back to where it was you know so and they're like wow so when i did this graph it kind of like when i did the very first one and i saw the bass line up here and then it was down here and i thought wow and that's when it hits you how good it is yeah it is what really is yeah because it's easy to have a reflexology treatment or an rld treatment think oh yeah i feel really nice after that i feel really good yeah i always feel better after that but to actually see the measurable change yeah is what will open doors what it is a couple of questions wendy just for the sake of anyone who's listening what do you have a favorite tape measure that you use are you using attention one or uh i'm using um it's in my clinic it's just your your everyday like a sewing um well done i used to have one that um i got one that was that come over the top um and slot in yes but i didn't like that one i like to see were because i use the tip of the um the tip of the tape yeah i know the metal part and i know where i'm measuring from every single time yeah i use um a sensitive eyeliner yes that's what i use um and then i use um i just use um it's a makeup remover and a gentle clinique um makeup remover to remove you know afterwards yes yeah fantastic yeah it's just an ordinary sewing tip yeah well well done for embracing and taking the learning and running with it and making a difference for so many people's lives it's fantastic i i i really don't you selling no well you had to sign up to that when people say that i think no no you know you have to sign up to that and do the work put in the work you know look teach yourself how to do a graph and you know these are new skills they're new skills uh later in life um in my reflexology box 100 100 completely changed my my treatment it's completely changed it because i'll i'll always add it in now as well you know even if someone hasn't come with that somebody's coming with arthritis fibromyalgia i use it in many many different ways now you know so it's i know that if i know how good it is so if anybody has got any inflammation going on that that will help as well as well but it is the best tool in my box 100 i would now say that my clinic is 70 wow that's that's absolutely fantastic absolutely fantastic it sounds to me like you you're a bit like me with that it's just for every client you see it's just a question of how much rld you include whether it's just all reality whether it's just a bit um and the rest is kind of incidental that's that's how i practice but yeah it's just gone in that direction for me yeah i think that you may want something that other people might also be interested in i mean i watched you your your social media posts um as as you were growing your rld work which was which is a joy to watch um but i just wondered if you'd like to share with anyone how you attract your clients because how you know you you've seen six or seven did you say today was it seven today today yeah thanks today how many would you say um i would say since i started posting social media as well because i always ask the client can i take pictures before and after yeah and can i use them for social media yeah they all say yes and they won't notice my feet well then i'm like no no no no you've not got your name on youtube um so first i love pictures because pictures just say thousand words so i do that and then but i would say on average um i'm doing about 25 people a week now 25 people a week um some weeks some weeks it can be 32 but there's only like so many hours in a day that you can you know um but yeah but i find that rld i i could do 10 rld in a day yeah it's it's different because i don't know why but i feel that it's different doing rld and i could continue to do it all day long you know but um yeah but for social media wise um i always like to post a before and after picture yeah i use um i just use a you can use canva to do it um and i always make sure that they're the same foot in the same position that's something that i've learned yes yeah so you want the same foot in the same position um with a photograph of each and i always try to pick out something that's quite obvious that will have gone whenever afterwards yes you know like um like when they come in with the shoes on and they've got that dent yeah you know that's good to show that it's gone yeah um and that there's no didn't there anymore yeah because you can see it you know packing over you can and it's painful for people that it's very young yes it is um so social media wise um i just do some before and after pictures i look up about um about the lymphatic system i'm reading up on things all the time you know um and as we know obviously we have the same benefits from it as mld yeah well so yes so i pick up you know i pick up lots of um everywhere and just make my own post for it yeah well done yeah i mean i i'm aware of this sort of thing i just thought and you've done a particularly good job of getting it out there because it's people's positive experiences yeah that literally speaks volumes in this case i'm i'm not the one that's just saying oh it is good i'm showing people it's this good yeah you know and that's the big difference like i said a picture speaks volumes you know and you can see that they're not the same foot and they're not the same legs no hundreds out there i could put hundreds out there yeah and more and more people now are using social media i think instagram is becoming more you know maybe more popular than basically i've only just started with instagram and i was how does it work i mean i have my own facebook page obviously but um but my instagram i was like is it more for the younger ones but i get i get a lot of appointments to it yeah i think a lot of people uh it's surprising how much uh contact and connection there is through yeah instagram um people have contacted me because yeah it's massive now and and i get and i would say now the majority is word of mouth yeah is word of mouth and when i say to people when they come in you know like have you heard about me and they'll say oh such a buddy's friend has been and she's had some lymph draining with you and then like yeah and one weird lady that came on um tuesday monday and she said is it going to hurt i said nothing i said you're going to absolutely love this yeah so she's lemma so i said yeah i said you're going to love it she went so where does the water go and like do you drain it with needles and i'm like no god oh but we loved it yeah and he's already put like eight sessions in you know that is the way um uh committing to a course of treatments i think also helps and also by seeing you don't need to do this obviously with clients but if you see somebody at the same time of day then they know that it's not the fluctuations in their strengths and if the weather's hot that's something else that can cause the lymphedema to be worse i i feel so proud of what you're doing it's it gives me somewhere yeah and i i get so many nice reviews and i know i never say to people you know somebody will say to me um i had a client yesterday and she was saying about um oh i was reading a review a lady had done i said i know i said they're amazing reviews i said you know they work wonders for you as well and she got home last night and wrote this huge review and said i've done with you but i don't know what to do with it so nice i said you don't have to do it but it does help if they do a review as well of course you know of course i mean i have one lady that's wrought that i have completely changed her life you know when you think wow it's fab sally it's it's the best thing i've ever done oh wendy um you just keep up the great work and you know maybe eventually you might be able to collaborate with some other rlds yes in the future if it comes to the local service sending too many people you know physically manage um it's always i right from the beginning i've been a great believer in collaborating with others because yeah do so much more can't we then just work thousands and thousands of people out there yeah that need yeah you know so yeah i'd be i'd be grateful of someone saying to me oh listen you know i can do rld as well so yeah and the data is you know it seems from what you're saying that that is the key to what's yeah it really is because if they can see it in black and white you know um and and like i said i like it once they've been to lymphedema clinic because they've already done the measurements yeah so when they re-measure and they see this graph then they're like wow and they know that i'm measuring exactly how they're measuring yes and they do and she told me she said it's exactly what we're doing yeah so that you therefore the data that you get from that is valid and they they because they're comparing on a like for like and they'll have the records of their client the last time they or their patient the last time they saw them and then they can see the change and if the only thing that's changed is a course of rld then and um no doubt your graphs are following that sort of pattern that we saw in research where people get the biggest loss the first time and then subsequent treatments right holiday because losses yeah yeah another tip as well is um i find that i always involve the client i always give them my clipboard and say right i want you to write you know the numbers down for me so that they can see you know i can't see that any numbers i'm not making these numbers up no and and and i like them going wow yeah you know on the on the second time i'm like yes it's much better to make it interactive in that way and work together um as you say to involve them and and it's much much easier for you rather than fiddling about the tape and yeah you know yeah twisting around like this trying to reach the clipboard that is a brilliant thing to do yes yeah and people say i unless you to do one thing and that's just to write some numbers down from it yeah so and it is it's amazing and i just i love it i can't express how much i love it i'm so helpful i'm just so pleased we i've you've given me goosebumps several times um you know it's all the work you're doing the drive you've got behind this the determination to get the data to do the work to help as many people as you possibly can is that just resonates with me um yeah yeah because that's that's if anybody hasn't done the course they need to do the course i'm not even saying it for that reason i just wow when i first did it i just did it because i'd seen it and i i'd read about this rld and i thought i'd love to know what this is and then when i saw your course i thought i'm doing this but then when i've done it and i did my case study i was like oh my god this is unreal and it was it blew me away after my first case study it blew me away but i didn't use it as much as i didn't i didn't advertise the fact that i was a reflex lymph draining practitioner yeah and i actually saw somebody one day who had lymphedema and i just thought this is where i need to be doing this rld and i said um i've got this you know this treatment and she said yeah whatever so i said and do some measurements and that was it then i just thought wow i need to keep doing this yeah and so now i advertise rld more than my reflexology yeah because you know what reflexology is yeah majority of people do but people don't know what rld does and the difference make so i know you're doing a brilliant brilliant job wendy i'm just so pleased anyway is there anything else you'd like to say to anybody before i stop the recording no i'm fine just everybody just needs to do our old age [Laughter] and date anyone who's done that rld gather the date don't be afraid yeah don't be afraid of the data i was at first and i was wondering i've done that measurement right yeah you know and you do it first i suppose yeah you know did i pull the tape to that part and you know and now it just comes it's second nature now and that's why i won't change my tape so if you taper the break something like that yeah i mean there are lots of different types of tape measures and you'd think a tape has a tape measure but it's not the case um i've i've got favorite as well which i like to use yeah and i've actually got some lymphedema ladies that have been in um before i was involved with the uh clinic um and they're like i brought you this and it was a little key ring with a round tape on it you know i know the ones you use it and i'm like right thank you is it like that one exact one the exact one um but at the end came off once and i was like oh yes can't risk that you can't risk that anyway thank you wendy and that i'm just gonna switch the recording off but thank you for sharing with the rld community um your work and you know brilliant out there 70 of your clients having rld is absolutely wonderful especially as you're seeing so many people a week yes brilliant i know a fair play to you fair play yes thank you i'm just going to switch the recording off