Reflexology Lymph Drainage webinar with Sally Kay

okay so we are now recording um welcome everyone thank you for joining me from all around the world australia us canada all around the uk um spain france um well i'm in wales and i know some of you are in england as well so welcome oh i'm portugal welcome everyone poland oh you're in poland are you gosh oh welcome wow thank you okay well i'm going to start with the first question which came from angela and she asked two questions actually uh what would the ideal frequency be for somebody with unilateral lymphedema because in my research and that that is a good question but i think largely it depends on how often your client is available to come in the research i chose to do it once a week because i wanted to do four treatments i needed a baseline week and a follow-up week so that was done over six weeks i was also restricted with that because of uh time and it being part of the research and part of my university work as well so that was my reason for choosing that also patients used to come into the clinics at the hospice of the valleys where i was working and they were just weekly clinics so weekly seemed like a reasonable a reasonable way to do that but i do know if somebody has extreme swelling and they're having bandaging and you know decongestive therapy with bandaging um then they do mlds and manual lymph drainage is done daily now my rule of thumb is with rld is if mld is okay then rld is okay so i hope that answers that question it's a bit of a difficult question to ask because the other thing you're you're maybe putting pressure financial pressure on people and then they have to come each week or each day you know so that's really up to you and the client i would say it also might depend on the severity of the swelling so what we found when it's a larger limb it takes longer to get the swelling down you know because the body can only return so much fluid at any one time okay so i hope that answers that question just welcome the other people who are joining us thank you thank you for joining i can see names but not videos but welcome anyway and just to let you know that we are recording so angela also asked another question which is an interesting question that i haven't been asked before and i only have very limited experience of this so i have to say how do you plan a reflexology treatment uh differently if the client has inner organs are reversed with no health defects now i didn't even know this could happen but there was somebody on the course i did at university who had this and basically you just need to reverse the foot map you just need to reverse the foot map so if you thought you were working the bowel in a clockwise direction you'd have to start on the other foot and and work that um or that's what i would do but some people might go through their life not knowing that they have that um i believe that person on the course found out about it as a result of her experiences of receiving complementary therapies during the trading well this lady only learned at the age of 50 and like she said she hasn't suffered anything up to now but uh yeah it's very strange i haven't come across it before so that is really how to confuse a reflexologist isn't it we all have i personally have that whole left right right left thing have to reverse it again and then if you're doing it on the hands as well i think that anyway so i would i would still do uh treatment but when you're thinking of specific or you know kidney to bladder that's okay both feet um but you'd want to work the liver and gall bladder on the opposite side and spleen on the opposite side um and i guess if there are drainage issues you'd have to think about the the left side normally as draining three quarters you'd be looking for differences in the right side um yeah it is it is fascinating but good it's good that she has no um problems no it came out from be it from a scan of having a a coil fitted believe it or not and it uh this story unfolds into a can of worms so i won't lengthen that but yeah well that would be an intro very interesting case study i know thank you thank you for your question angela thank you and so my next question is from i've also done them in a list in order that i received them and wrote them down as well because i always like everything to be fair so my next question was from sandy who's with us here from france sandy said if you're including rld in a general reflexology session at what point would you use it now um i would say no rules really it's up to you with the client it also depends how much time you have with that person you may choose to just work the lymphatic system if you already if you work through the systems as you do your reflexology you may choose to just work the lymphatic system using the rld sequence when you come to work that system that's not what i do um but again i wouldn't say any is right or wrong my way is to i kind of whip around the lymphatic system to start so i'll do moves one to seven so it's quickly round but when i'm talking about four five and six of the three upper lymph moves i wouldn't do three of each one i'd go across the first time clear under the arm second time i'd go across and do that kind of deltoid shoulder third time i'd go across pump under the arm sweep down work the lower lymph and then i'd start my treatment so you've kind of had a quick flush around because i think when you when you work like this when you work the subclavian vein cisterna kylie these two reflexes give you a lot of information even if somebody doesn't have lymphedema i think these reflexes tell you if there's inflammation going on if they've been lethargic if they haven't been sleeping well i i think you get that they get the client will feel that bruised sensation and for you it might feel very congested or blocked or stagnant you know whatever your your however you would describe that the same sort of thing um so and then at the end of my treatment i would whip around again because and then finish with the you know nice kidney to bladder flush and and some linking um i would find it very difficult to do a reflexology treatment now without using some elements of rld because i you know i see how it flushes through the whole system and makes a big difference so i hope that answers your question sandy yeah okay thank you very much okay my next question is from dee uh who is with us here dee um it's one of those questions where somebody's asked her if she would be able to help somebody so i'm going to i'm going to read out whether to treat somebody's ass whether or not she'd be able to treat her auntie's in her 70s extremely overweight sits in the chair most of the day moves very slowly on the zimmer frame throughout the day and has had flare-ups of cellulitis over the years these started 20 years ago and but has she hasn't had any recently so nothing in the last year firstly i want to say there that rld is only contraindicated if there's a current episode of during a flare-up during an episode of cellulitis once the cellulitis has passed and they've finished taking their antibiotics and they've recovered from it rld is fantastic i would say for that but um this is a complex case because firstly you you don't really if you don't know the client if you haven't seen them you don't know what else might be going on so what might be causing the swelling because you also added here about it being a contraindication um and that you said that the hospital used to drain her legs of the fluid um but the client your client believes that they gave up on her years ago now when you say drain the legs of the fluid see this is the sort of thing you would need to know more information about whether they're doing manual lymph drainage whether they're doing compression bandaging to help drain that way but also understanding the cause of the swelling will help you decide together with what else is going on so i wouldn't say it's contraindicated that that person would be contraindicated but i would wait until i saw them and did a full consultation to understand how i would adapt my reflexology whether i would use elements of rld or not i've made a note here i think this is one of those things of managing expectations because as rld is gaining momentum and we're seeing people sharing the most fantastic results worldwide people are sharing their results which is fantastic other people are seeing this and think you know maybe they've got really swollen legs and they're kind of desperate for some help and they think if i have that then i'm going to improve but it might not be the same for everyone because the cause of the swelling you need to understand the cause of the swelling before you decide decide how to adapt and and also you'll be carefully managing their expectations too because there is a vulnerability with people with health conditions such as that who are maybe desperate for some help especially if they feel that the health service has given up on them i'm sure the health service hasn't um so i hope that answers your question yes absolutely thank you thank you very much thank you so our next question is uh daughter is that how you say it i ah daughter thank you okay who is currently in poland so uh welcome um so she said i fell lady she had a call from a lady with lymphedema on her upper legs trunk upper arms and just wondering how to treat her whether to work on the hands or whether to work on the feet now you could do either that would be entirely up to you because with rld when you do those moves one to seven what you're doing is getting that lymphatic system going and once you've got it going all moving around you're creating that vacuum that if you remember when you're trying to get the lymph moving you can't push it because the system is full if you like it you need to open the drain open that subclavian drain point so all the fluid can start to return back to the circulation and then you create a sort of vacuum in order to draw more fluid into it so by doing moves one to seven you would technically already start moving the lymph so it would already start drawing in from the interstitial spaces into the into the lymph vessels entering the initial lymph vessels and starting to move so if somebody had upper edema you know arms and legs then i would add in both moves so i would add in how to i would add in what we do for unilateral so breast and arm or you could leave out the breast if you wanted but no harm in adding it in as well and i would also add the leg reflexes in before i then finish the foot with a nice kidney to bladder flush so i hope does that answer your question and so you also said your case study is somebody with lymphedema of the trunk and upper legs and that you worked on her feet and had good results uh but this lady also has lymphedema in her upper arms okay um and you're just trying to do your best to support her so you've got some good results did you do um did you do the arms and leg reflexes would you like to unmute just the legs oh you just did the leg reflexes and did she still get some uh sensation in her arms oh yes yes okay yeah great so you there would be no harm in um adding adding uh arms and legs and that so i would do one to seven to get it all going and then after that uh add in arms and legs so again go back to understanding the pathology of what's causing the swelling whether it's primary lymphedema whether it's lipoedema or you know whether it's in obesity related i think when we understand it we know more about how to help it move so with very stubborn lower limb edema it's quite hard to demonstrate here but i'm going to do it so with very stubborn lower limb edema i if if the client is here if that's the client's foot i i like to pump so i would pull the heel towards me in order to pump but what what i'm actually doing is pumping the lower lymph and also some ankle rocking so anything to help that stubborn lower edema because remember it all has to travel up the body up to subclavian veins so or any help that you can give it that's how i would do that so does that does that help does that answer your question thank you very much you're very welcome thank you okay so yin in melbourne not melbourne sydney sydney we met in melbourne though didn't we we did yeah we did i know but for the record i preferred sydney to melbourne oh we loved sydney anyway um so your question is one that i don't get off asked very often and i don't again don't have a lot of experience of it so your question is can rld be used on a baby and at what age now that's a kind of a general that's quite a big question so to that i would say again go back to the my safety net which is if our if mld is appropriate then rld would be appropriate and i would always try to mirror the sequence and the that that the mld sequence that they're following so if they drain one side first i would do the same i would repeat the same on the foot but i do know there is a rare form of primary lymphedema that can be developing children at birth and very early on and i believe they manage that with as best they can with mld so i would be looking to mirror whatever they're doing for that but apart from that i didn't really understand why you might be wondering about rld on a baby for anything other than lymphedema do you have a particular case in mind um yes the baby has a allergy okay mother has to go on a special diet okay that the baby don't have the allergy with sawyer okay and dairy product okay and what effect does it have what does the allergy do to the baby um baby becomes restless i'm not sleeping well okay and i mean i have to be honest here i don't have a lot of experience with working with babies but i do think that reflexology is wonderful for babies but it obviously it's very gentle and you have to be it's a short treatment um so maybe a look at some of the other training providers who do work with babies but i i think you just simplify it right down and you know use the horizontal zones rather than working deeply in reflexes i think just more gentle and a short treatment but if i had a restless baby i would certainly give it some nice gentle reflexology digestive shoes i'd very gently you know work clockwise in in that horizontal zone um that that's what i would do i'm not sure i would do rld because i i i think it might be hard to work those reflexes on very small feet because they're very specific aren't they um you know getting high in the upper lymph and uh the systema kylie and i'm not quite sure that you you would be able to put as much detail in but i do think definitely reflexology for babies is wonderful absolutely wonderful and there are some quite nice books around about that uh working with babies yes thank you very much thank you um and i've just got one more question on the list which is from maria who is from south africa but i don't think she's with us but i'm going to answer the question anyway it's if i incorp rrd into my existing reflex treatments do i do the linking and bladder kidney reflexes at the end of the full treatment so that's kind of the same or similar question to um sandy was asking about when and how i would incorporate rld in so there are no hard and fast rules i'm very biased towards it because i see the results regularly all the time and and i just i would struggle not to use parts of it now um but even if you were doing a standard reflexology i think once you've done this training and you've got your head around the idea of moving all the lymph and you see the results for yourself you will even if you're not doing rld you will still pay attention to the subclavian vein and the cystone kylie reflex which will give you information and if they feel blocked up and congested then you may choose to work the lymphatic system you know how when we're working normally we would adapt our treatment as we go depending what we find uh you know it's it's actually harder to stick to three of those three of those three of those than to you know for example if you get to the children you think oh my goodness what's been going on here and your client might say oh yes i i've been doing a lot of work at the computer this week or something you know it's actually how we work uh we we feel something and we give it a little bit of extra attention so thank you everyone for your questions um i'm just wondering does anybody have any questions that you'd like to ask anybody who's here would you like to unmute uh nikki there we are would you like to unmute um yes i just wanted to ask if you have somebody who isn't presenting with lymphedema um but they do have other issues maybe fibromyalgia or something like that or some kind of inflammation or autoimmune thing going on which i know rld is good for do you do in your treatment the leg reflex or the arm reflex or a mixture of both within it i might do both either or neither okay it would depe i i i wouldn't really have rules about that because it would depend on the individual so for example if somebody had chronic fatigue syndrome so kind of part of the whole fibro any chronic fatigue but no pain they're just fatigued i would do a very slow gentle moves one to seven i might not do the arms and i might not do the legs i might just do a gentle slow shortish treatment over two feet with you know kidneys bladder flush finishing with some linking and um you know i might do a little bit more work around the head as well to try and you know relax the nervous system a bit um it would be a very gentle treatment because you don't want to overload someone in my experience of working with my clients with fibromyalgia i did i used to see a lot of people with this condition it was as if i was attracting them i um you know in my early days uh when i was working at the hospice uh um a lot of my private clients were people who would come under that umbrella and um i noticed that some people used to be more affected in the upper body you know shoulders and um that would be where they'd get if they were having um a kind of episode with fibro they'd get more upper body or some people it might be their legs so i would do either to to suit them uh or you know if they were having if their upper body was bothering them i'd do the arms if their lower body was bothering them i'd do the legs equally if there was somebody who was an athlete uh who was somebody who might go for sports massage i would do rld and i would do arms and legs to give them a whole you know that whole sort of flush everything out and i've had people in that category who said to me my god i feel like i've had a sports massage uh after that so a gentleman who was very reluctant he didn't really want to be there uh his wife had made him come and come and he sort of sat in a chair and how long is this going to take and afterwards he was like oh i feel like i've had a sports massage and i just did rld arms and legs he rebooked and came back too so fibromyalgia uh other conditions i would i would just tailor it to the person in front of me and it might not be the same if something one thing is hurting one week and something else is hurting the other week so does that help yes definitely thank you thank you vicky does anybody else have any questions that you'd like to ask okay gene gene in canada would you like to unmute yes hi i just did your prep your course last week so um i haven't really practiced the rld but i did have a very interesting experience with one of my regular clients this week that i wanted to ask you about okay when i was doing the lymphatic areas the breast lymphatic uh she mentioned on both feet that the the area was a certain spot was very tender so when i told her what the area was uh she looked at me kind of surprised and said that she had had um a lump biopsied in her left breast would turn which turned out to be benign but in her right breast uh there was actually a blocked lymphatic um dot or node and she is getting monitored for that uh every every you know every year she has a scan or something so she's quite worried about it but i was just very surprised that first of all i picked it up and was just wondering if the rld could actually help with the swelling in that particular area to go down and possibly uh open it up at some point for her well i'm well done for picking it up that's great how great is it that we still love it we just still love you when we pick things up and we we you just don't lose that do you so i would like to think that flushing the lymphatic system might help to unblock this for her so i would be very interested to hear uh so she didn't tell you about this you just picked it up on you picked up on it and with the lymphatic stuff um did they say what's causing the blockage on the right side she had no idea and from you know she she just said like they don't know why they're just they just told her it's blocked to the point where it's it's swollen and they can pick it up in scans uh but of course she is quite concerned that it may turn to cancer or you know have some get bigger or you know she might have to have a surgery or something later on yeah um i mean i think women i i wouldn't like to guess this but depending what age she is women can have a sort of calcification um sometimes uh i think that's his early 50s okay okay um did she give you any feedback follow-up feedback afterwards or has she rebooked uh well she's rebooked for sure yeah and i told her that i was hopefully going to contact you and just ask for your opinion on because you know it might be a case where if you think it would be a good idea then i would just switch over and do the rld on her rather than the straight reflexology treatment well i my my benchmark with that is what would i want yeah and i you can probably guess the answer yes so yeah i just wonder if you had seen that before as well um no the only the only experience i've got of anything similar to that is and i've seen this a few times happen in the groups when we're doing the practical sessions you know when you're pumping under the arm so step six you pump three times under the arm i've seen this happen a few times where the person in the chair who's having the treatment goes oh i felt that okay and it's as if they they report feeling something as if it just goes uh a premenstrual type you know when you get that sort of engorged uh breast heavy breast feeling that premenstrual um i've i've seen that happen a couple of times in that and it's taken us all by surprise when it's happened yeah okay great i have one more question a quick one yeah and your measurement sheet for um when you have on the side the distal and proximal and you have a on your sheet you have a number written in there for 18.5 centimeters was that the distance from the nail bed yes it was okay so if you're doing the feet hand corner that are of the page yeah it's up there 18 and a half yes it was so if you're measuring the feet just gonna get my ruler if you're measuring the feet our legs uh they're actually much harder to measure um but we're going this is the outer edge of the foot and this is how i would do it i would that's not a great foot i've been ordering plastic feet lately so if this is the floor here if it's on the floor then i would put the ruler the end of the ruler flat on the floor with the foot flat on the floor and i would go to two centimeters above the ankle and that would be my fixed starting point okay so in the same way you go two centimeters above the wrist because you want to be halfway up the first four centimeter cylinder that's at end of the ruler on the floor to two centimeters above the ankle that would be your first distal measurement and then every four centimeters after that okay and then all we have to fill in on that sheet is the circumference measurements yes yes okay thank you you're welcome thank you anybody else have any questions uh amanda so um going back to hello hi and to the cellulitis issue yeah um some people i believe are on long-term antibiotics so it becomes a chronic issue rather than an acute issue so bearing in mind that that is you know they're permanently presented with cellulitis is that then um contraindicated or no it only contraindicated if they've got cellulitis at that time they're fixing it's acute yes if it's in its acute phase yeah because if the lymph nodes have been removed from a limb and somebody is has cellulitis in their arm then the bacterial infection can spread through the body uh and then they need um maybe to go into hospital and have intervened in a stronger dose of antibiotics intravenous yeah so obviously then if they're on um long-term antibiotics the whole time they're going to have lots of gut issues probably aren't they with their i mean you could maybe refer them to a nutritionist for some advice about uh you know because you can have tests done for all that and get your friendly bacteria you know yeah yes yeah gut health i think is good um thank you thank you okay anybody else have a question i do sally hi jolene hi um i'm working with the lady um who's who's very large and has been diagnosed with lymphedema and i was curious too if it was lipid lipodema with her um but i'm i'm measuring her feet and i had the same question that gene had like how to measure that do you go to the the malleolus and do the two centimeters from the malleolus uh yes uh anywhere that's anywhere that's kind of approximately two centimeters above there because what you're what you want to be measuring is then a series of four centimeter cylinders going two centimeters above um then the two centimeter mark is where you take your uh circumference measurement because it's halfway around to four centimeter cylinder cylinder so i would i would pick a nice round number um let's see so the top of that plastic foot that says 10 you know rather than trying to go 10.4 or 11.2 i would keep it to an easy number easy to replicate and then always use that fixed start fixed starting point and use it for both legs as well and how how would you handle like the skin folds because her you know her legs are pretty large and when you're moving up the leg i have to say i probably wouldn't measure okay okay um because it's quite it's quite a difficult thing to do and really climb and her time is better spent in the couch receiving the treatment okay also um there's a limit to how much fluid the body can return back to its circulation at any one time so when you re-measure you might hardly see any difference in very big limbs so but you feel better yes avoiding any um you know well there hasn't been much change it's sometimes better to just let someone say oh i feel lighter or my legs feel lighter or my shoes are looser or any of those sort of things so to pick up on those things as an outcome can be better so i i probably wouldn't measure very big legs because it's also very time consuming yes it is yeah okay thank you okay you're welcome anybody else hand up for a treat hand up for a question and then i'll ask you to unmute no questions okay angela thank you sorry i didn't want to be greedy and take over all your time but um i've just been told today a friend of a friend unfortunately has just been freshly diagnosed with cat breast cancer and it's quite aggressive it's gone to her lymph nodes um this poor lady i feel would benefit from reflexology but am i safe to help her at these early stages um i don't want to you know cause any detriment to her treatment or her health but i feel i want to reach out to her but am i safe to do that well i've worked on people through all stages of cancer journey from diagnosis before they've had treatment people who have aggressive cancers where they need to have chemotherapy before they get the surgery then they have more chemotherapy and radiotherapy and if you think of it this way that how stressful that diagnosis is and the fear all of that if you consider that and know that the body can't be in that fight or flight stress situation at the same time as they're in that rest and digest heal and grow so i think anything that you can do to help someone just have a little bit of respite a little bit of relaxation while peter in your hands has got to be good oh that's good and does it matter if it's weekly or again you know would you worry about the frequency i probably wouldn't but on the other hand i mean i i'm not i'm not in favor of commenting on individual cases that i don't know but this is just a general discussion the patients that used to come into the clinics where i worked they used to come in weekly while they were going through all this and have have something but they didn't nobody ever had an hour no mostly because there kind of wasn't time but you can do an awful lot for someone in just 20 or 30 minutes thank you i value your opinion because i know that's where your area of work has been angela angela um i the reason i'm a reflexologist is because i had um reflexology all the way through my chemo when i was diagnosed with breast cancer 15 years ago okay and i had it two weeks out of three and the only reason i didn't have it the well it was actually the first week of each cycle was because that was the week i had my chemo and that was the day she was in dorchester so i had it the following week when she worked on my immune system and it was just classic it was nothing it was classic iir ingham trained um reflexology and then i had it in my what i classed as my good week when i could actually function and i am absolutely convinced that it stopped i was able to do 18 weeks straight rather than got bumped and it's why i do what i do today so thank you so much go for it thank you so much for it oh thank you thank you thank you for sharing isabel thank you no problem yeah um something that comes up from what isabel said there when you are working with people who are going through chemotherapy you have to consider where they are in that cycle um so as isabel said you had one week where she couldn't function at all and some people might not feel like having it um then so i i think take each person as an individual see how they're coping with everything and like isabelle says i i would also uh like to think that because of the reflexology you didn't miss a treatment you didn't miss a week and i bet you it always gave you something to look forward to each week as well absolutely yeah and look how many people you've helped in the 15 years since so thank you thank you for sharing so we've got another 10 minute another 12 minutes if anybody has any questions um sorry sally when my internet connection went completely at the point when you were showing how to measure the foot from the floor so what i have always done is bend the foot to get that find the crease oh and then measure two two centimeters above and then measure from the bottom of the nail to the to get the original measurement but you did something with the ruler at the side what i was showing and why i'm doing this with my hand sorry i think we we use our hands to work don't we so we talk with our hands as well so i would i would put the ruler flat end of the ruler flat on the floor and just go to two centimeters above there but for consistency okay um but if you've been doing it that way um you'll the other thing is you'll be used to that foot you'll be used to where the fixed starting point is and um okay and thank you i'm sure that's fine anyway you're welcome thank you so um somebody dropped out then and everybody moved around but there was somebody who had their hand up um they've all moved around now does anybody have any questions no any at all don't be afraid to ask no um would you like if nobody has any questions or maybe you don't like to ask would you uh oh hang on there's a chat box i haven't seen that i've been talking away um okay okay so this is a question about um working would it be okay to incorporate the rld into a usual reflexology routine some of the movements seem similar to those that i've learned on a normal treatment yeah so when you're training i do think we all need to learn a set routine when we're training you know we we have a foot map and and we follow that and we we need to do that when we're learning but i think the more feet you get your hands on that's when you really learn that it's actually it's okay to deviate you also stop seeing the foot as a two-dimensional you know the map on the foot and you start thinking more three-dimensionally when you're working um but that will come with experience but just be confident in your training and just get hold of as many feet as you possibly can it's what i would say just so yes rld can be given as a standalone treatment you can use elements of it or you can you can use it to work the lymphatic system um so i hope that answers uh your question thank you just make sure okay oh somebody had to go okay okay oh we got sue from somebody from south africa as well lovely thank you everyone okay um sue hi do you have any questions from south africa and you might need to unmute so i can hear you hi hi welcome thank you i don't have any questions at the moment um if i think of anything i'll i'll show you sorry i thought you had um done a hand signal that's fine okay um well we have just a few more minutes if anybody's got anything else you'd like to add can i just ask how it's going with the online training versus the in-person training i'm just curious well i have to say uh good question um had the first one not been okay in fact more than okay i wouldn't have done any more okay um it's been exceptionally well received exceptionally well received uh yeah yeah otherwise i wouldn't be doing it because i really want people to get this i i want i want more than anything for people to really understand it and i think because of the book having the book and the video everything and the video everything is there to refer back to as well i've got some new material that that was part of another project i was doing since finishing publishing the book last year um so i've been able to use some of that material as well um yeah so but thank you i mean i couldn't have imagined doing teaching it online but but what it has done it's enabled people to join who wouldn't have been able to get classes and you get these lovely groups of people together from joining you from all over the world and i think when jolene joined was it two in the morning where you were or was that some somebody we've had people yeah i had to get up at four yeah morning but yeah yeah so it's been really lovely having uh and people have joined from south africa who who wouldn't have been able to get to the course so i i love the idea that it will progress now and help other help more people this way because i've also set up a closed facebook group to support the online learning and we do a one-hour q a follow-up um about four to six weeks afterwards as well have you thought about buddying people up with people who've done the face-to-face training um yes i mean sometimes there are people on the online stuff who live near each other so right three people in scotland this week all near each other some of them didn't know each other so um it just seems to be you know with reflexology how synchronicity just happens yeah and it just all seems to be it's odd because i did a uh it was a one day course with moss arnold and sharon wendell um and it's the first time i've done an online course but actually it works really well surprisingly yes okay my laptop had to be in a slightly precarious position to to show moss and sharon what i was doing on my husband's feet but it did work yeah it does it does work and um you know we have these technology issues but we just wait and it gets sorted and um yeah it's been an unexpected pleasure really good really has so thank you yes it's yeah thank you and people have said they've enjoyed not having to travel somewhere as well and not have to stay overnight in a hotel and being able to just focus it's quite i think you have to concentrate more because it's online so it's important to take regular breaks and things but it seems to be um the formula seems to be working well i know several people have commented that there's no even though they're based in the uk you were so fully booked that they wouldn't have gone to the course until sometime next year anyway so this brought it forward so they were thrilled so yeah yeah thank you thank you okay does anybody have last couple of minutes any more questions from anyone no well just to say thank you you're welcome to unmute if anybody wants to speak to anybody else if you want to speak to each other uh have you have you found this helpful is it helpful exercise absolutely i might do this again then um thank you well thank you everyone for joining me and uh giving up an hour on a friday afternoon i hope you all have a lovely weekend in the middle of the night in sydney it's lovely to see how far afield everyone is and how our ld is spread across the world yes it is research now i mean so for sandy you you won't know uh probably won't know about the research um where our next paper is due to be published next month in a british journal of community nursing and it's uh thermal imaging uh study a pilot study of thermal imaging that was done that we did we've done more research since where we've had two groups one had a standard reflexology and one group had rld all were breast cancer-related lymphedema they were all people who hadn't had reflexology before so they didn't know which group they were in and the results are fantastic so that will be the paper after that due to be published so the university really are putting a lot of effort into this and judith watk is doing a fantastic job driving it yeah so i do think they'll need us they'll be begging us to go and work in a healthcare service hopefully because they'll realize what they're all missing thank you everyone for joining me um i'm going to end the recording i'll do that thanks sally